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 Seemingly Low End Defeats

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PostSubject: Seemingly Low End Defeats   Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:00 pm

This is where I will analyze various fights that may seem low end, unrealistic, or even embarrassing for the defeated character, and where I will explain how such a thing is more plausible than is given credit for.
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PostSubject: Re: Seemingly Low End Defeats   Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:00 pm

Okay... we all know this fight that is often referenced and ridiculed as this character's absolute worst showing ever... Grievous's defeat at the hands of Gungans.

The Defeated: My personal viewpoint here is that Grievous got way too cocky. Given the fact that arrogance is very prominent amongst his tendencies, this argument makes a whole lot of since. Let's also consider the fact that Grievous was fighting Gungans. Consider how seriously we take Gungans for example, and it becomes easy to visualize how Grievous could view them in a similar way. This line of thought is heavily supported by Grievous's first line upon seeing his opponents, "You can't be serious." Pair Grievous's arrogance with how hard it is to take Gungans seriously and it starts to paint a picture of just how cocky Grievous must've been prior to his injury. He only stops being cocky once he has an electrospear stuck through his body and by that point, well he has an electrospear stuck through his body. So Grievous was definitely underperforming for this entire fight.

MVP: Tarpals was a General in the Gungan Grand army. He was also shown as being skilled enough to last a few seconds against Grievous while his fellow Gungans got slaughtered by Grievous with almost casual disdain. Tarpals also did a cool little kick weapon up from the ground with foot and catch it thing before actually engaging Grievous. While this may seem unimportant, it does suggest that the creators of TCW are building up Tarpals as a skilled badass. Last of all Tarpals was able to muster the strength to stab his spear through Grievous's armored chasis while mortally wounded. So in short, Tarpals seems to be a very capable warrior in his own right.

Victorious force: Gungans have a bit of negative connotation as a result of how ****ing stupid Jar Jar is. What you have to remember is that Jar Jar is just as stupid by their standards, and that is why they banished him from their city. With this in mind, some of the negative connotation they receive may be unfair. The Gungans Grievous faced were trained warriors, and not what is arguably the characterized version of syphilis, Jar Jar Binks. Some of the Gungans were armed with Boomers, a ball of condensed electrified plasma that shared some properties with an EMP. Such properties would be highly effective against a cyborg, like Grievous, should they successfully land a blow. There were also a lot of Gungans.

Conclusion: Grievous walked into the fight, not taking the Gungans seriously at all due to his own hubris and how ridiculous they seem, and killed those who attacked him with casual disdain. Then Tarpals, who is arguably their most skilled warrior stepped in, but despite all of his efforts, Grievous made short work of him, mortally wounding him. Being overwhelmingly cocky, Grievous certainly did not expect a Gungan he just mortally wounded to be capable of stabbing a spear through his body, but Tarpals did because he is a badass. Grievous was no longer cocky at that point, but was now seriously wounded, stunned and surrounded by several trained warriors armed with weaponry that is highly effective against machinery, such as Grievous's own cybernetics. Before Grievous had any time to recover, the Gungan army brought him down with their weaponry from all angles. Essentially the entire fight boiled down to one pivotal moment where an extremely cocky Grievous underestimated a highly skilled Gungan who he had mortally wounded.
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PostSubject: Re: Seemingly Low End Defeats   Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:27 am

Here's another one that seems a tad embarrassing, yet I don't see it brought up too often for some reason when people are lowballing. Dooku's defeat at the hands of the Pirates.

The Defeated: An argument that may come up in Dooku's favor is the claim that Dooku was unarmed when he was defeated, but this would be a misconception. Hondo says that Dooku cut up some of his men with his lightsaber, meaning that Dooku did indeed reclaim his weapon during that fight. Let's take a look at his martial specializations though. As a lightsaber wielder, Dooku specialized almost exclusively in Makashi, which is known to be weak against blaster wielding assailants and multiple opponents, a category a horde of blaster wielding weequay pirates would certainly fit the description of. Dooku, while powerful, just isn't well specialized for this kind of encounter. Dooku is more specialized for duels than battles.

MVP: Hondo explains that he was the one responsible for turning the tide of the battle by "getting the jump" on Dooku, which is then implied to have been done by use of Anakin's lightsaber. Given that Hondo was fighting Ahsoka on even ground, and even managed to hold off Anakin for a little while in melee combat, this certainly suggests that Hondo is highly skilled in melee combat, and thus he may have actually been able to catch Dooku off guard with Anakin's lightsaber. Given his ability to hold his own against Anakin in a duel, it's actually quite plausible that Hondo could give Dooku some trouble as well.

Victorious force: the weequay pirates were very numerous and very well equipped, possessing blasters, cannons, tanks, turrets, and rocket launchers. A quote from Hondo actually suggests that the pirates made use of multiple cannons in that fight. They have also shown themselves to be quite cunning at times, which would certainly be a surprise to their opponents. They were also set up in a position to where they surrounded Dooku.

Conclusion: Dooku was surrounded by armed pirates while unarmed, but managed to reclaim his weapon. By this point, Dooku was armed, but still at a disadvantage of specialization against the pirates. Despite this disadvantage however, Dooku was cutting them up even as they began to bring out heavy firepower against him. Then Hondo, a melee combatant skilled enough to hold his own against Anakin for a little while, caught Dooku off guard by attacking him with Anakin's own lightsaber. Now with Hondo engaging Dooku in melee, meanwhile Dooku is surrounded by numerous pirates with heavy weaponry, which Dooku isn't well specialized for, you start to see how this all fits together. Dooku is outnumbered, not very well specialized for this type of encounter, and it being pressed by someone skilled in melee combat. It was simply too much for him.
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PostSubject: Re: Seemingly Low End Defeats   Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:59 pm

It seems Grievous gets "too cocky" in a big ass chunk in his fights.

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PostSubject: Re: Seemingly Low End Defeats   Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:33 am

Here's another one that I've been wanting to do for a while... Bane vs Mercenaries

The Defeated: Right before the battle takes place, Bane muses that he is exhausted and in no shape to fight Zannah at that particular time, likely worn out from dominating Andeddu's will for several hours with unwavering focus, then spending the next few days processing all of the raw information he stole from Andeddu's holocron. Bane was also caught off guard by the first strike, and forced into the middle of all of his attackers at the beginning of the fight.

MVP: The Huntress was a very formidable opponent. Even working alone, she had never failed to kill anyone she tried to kill, having pretty much a perfect record as a bounty hunter. She also had a few unique talents that ultimately turned the fight in her favor. Her force suppression ability was very potent, being capable of preventing Bane's lightning from disintegrating people, and reducing the powers of another deadly force wielder to being only capable of staggering someone with all of his might. This power came into play against Bane when she was reducing his capabilities in that fight. Perhaps her more important ability to this fight however was her precognition and visions. Her highly advanced precognition allowed her to survive her encounter with Bane, by letting her see his moves before they happened and evade them. As the tactician setting all of the soldiers up for the fight, her visions of the future would've granted her great clarity on what plans positions and arrangements would've been most effective for this encounter. Last of all, Serra hooked her up with an extremely potent knock-out drug she coated her knives with, which was what sealed Bane's defeat in the end.

Victorious force: The forces under the Huntress's command were twenty well-trained warriors, whom Bane notes as being smart, and coordinating their efforts very well. In addition, the soldiers were all well armed with stun weaponry, sonic weaponry, flash weaponry, and explosive weaponry. The mercenaries also had a lot of time for preparation and set up at various points in Bane's mansion.

Conclusion: The Huntress had several hours to set up twenty well trained and well armed mercenaries up throughout the mansion, which she was able to do to great extent due to her highly advanced farsight, granting her clairvoyance on what would and wouldn't work for the upcoming fight. Bane then returned to his mansion already very tired, and the Huntress further suppressed his abilities with her advanced force suppression. Bane was then caught off guard as he was completely unprepared and not expecting this attack and was forced into a position right in the middle of the mercenaries. So an already tired completely unprepared Bane who is having his abilities further suppressed by the Huntress is fighting her, and twenty well trained, well armed, expertly prepared, expertly positioned mercenaries with excellent teamwork. It is at this point that the already formidable Huntress, with the aid of her men and her highly advanced precognition is capable of lasting near Bane long enough to administer the toxin. Bane at this point is dealing with several soldiers and the Huntress while not in peak condition with the Huntress suppressing his abilities, and he was on the verge of completely turning the fight around when the drugs in his system took effect and knocked him out.
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PostSubject: Re: Seemingly Low End Defeats   Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:00 am

Here's a new thing I'm trying, which is a one on one defeat rather than a one vs group defeat. I'm going to tackle one that has left Star Wars fans baffled for quite a while now. How the hell was Maul defeated by Obi-wan in TPM?

The Defeated: Darth Maul was a bit too cocky for his own good in that fight. Having just defeated Qui-gon, whom his master stated to be the more powerful of the two, and having treated Kenobi as a non-factor for the previous part of the fight, Maul was almost certainly underestimating Kenobi. And Maul certainly didn't expect anything of Kenobi after he had pushed him into the pit, disarming him and eliminating his weapon from the fight. Through his hubris, Maul overlooked the other weapon in the room.

The Victor: Obi-wan Kenobi is hardly your average Jedi Padawan first of all. He was trained by Qui-gon Jinn, an expert swordsman who held Kenobi at high esteem, and was also on the verge of becoming a Jedi Knight. To top this off, Kenobi was empowered by the rage of losing his master, so was pushing himself a lot further than he previously had been.

Sign(s) of the Superiority of the Fallen: After Maul regains his composure after being caught off guard by Kenobi, Maul kicked Kenobi, casually twirled over his blade before exhibiting a taunting pose, and a few seconds later he met Kenobi in a bladelock, overpowering Kenobi and opening him up to either a physical, force, or lightsaber attack, with Maul being perfectly capable of applying any of these to end the fight at that point.

Conclusion: So basically Maul who had just defeated Kenobi's master, who had demonstrated far greater ability than him throughout the fight, was considerably cocky, and underestimating Kenobi. Kenobi however, being an exceptionally skilled padawan and empowered by his rage was capable of catching Maul off guard in the first twenty seconds of their fight, cutting Maul's saberstaff in half. Maul however managed to recover from Kenobi's strike at his weapon and regain his composure in the next seven seconds, managing to turn the fight back in his favor. With his composure regained, he kicked Kenobi, easily dodged his attacks, and overpowered him in a bladelock in the next fifteen seconds, leaving the padawan open to a variety of moves Maul could've used to finish him off. Maul having already bested his opponent thoroughly enough, used the force to throw him into the pit, and discarded Kenobi's weapon, removing it from the fight. Having solidly beat and disarmed Kenobi, Maul no longer considered him a threat, and in his hubris failed to recognize the fact that Jinn's lightsaber was still available for Kenobi to use, and when Kenobi took advantage of this opportunity, Maul was completely unprepared, caught off guard, and lost his legs because of this.
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PostSubject: Re: Seemingly Low End Defeats   Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:38 pm

"Maul advanced toward Qui-Gon and spun, deflecting blows from both Jedi as the fight shifted across the hanger deck. Rapidly spinning his lightsaber blade, he anticipated their moves with ease. Having expected a greater challenge from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, he felt even more disgusted by them. But if the Jedi held no surprises in combat, Maul knew he had his Master to thank for that."

-The Wrath of Darth Maul

"Qui-Gon was already up and he rushed toward Maul, but Obi-Wan reached him first. Maul spun his lightsaber, deflecting his opponents' strikes as he backed through the open doorway. He launched a high kick that connected with Obi-Wan's jaw. As Obi-Wan fell back and rolled across the floor, Maul backed up, luring Qui-Gon toward the power generator. Obi-Wan got up fast and sprinted to rejoin the fight.

That's it. Come to me.

Qui-Gon swung. Maul parried and swung back fast, clipping Qui-Gon's blade and then Obi-Wan's. The double-bladed lightsaber was a blur. Maul backed onto an inspection platform that was suspended high over the generator's deep shaft, and kicked off, backflipping to one of the many catwalks that spanned different levels in the shaft. Both Jedi leaped after him, and the fight proceeded along the catwalk.

Maul leered again at Qui-Gon. You think you're driving me back. You have no idea that I'm in control. You don't know where I'm taking you."


-The Wrath of Darth Maul

"That night Darth Sidious stood alone on a balcony overlooking the city, a shadowy figure amid the multitude of twinkling lights, his visage dark and angry as he contemplated the loss of his apprentice. Years of training had gone into the preparation of Darth Maul as a Sith Lord. He had been more than the equal of the Jedi Knights he had faced and should have been able to defeat them easily. It was bad luck and chance that had led to his death, a combination that even the power of the dark side could not always overcome."

-The Phantom Menace

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