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 Plo Koon vs Jaden Korr

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PostSubject: Plo Koon vs Jaden Korr   Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:47 pm

You go first.  I Win

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PostSubject: Re: Plo Koon vs Jaden Korr   Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:23 am

Jaden is one of the orders most promising Jedi at a very young age. His skill with the blade and defeat of powerful opponents such as Ragnos, Tavion and Alora show that he is a capable warrior, yet he is even more impressive as a force user as he has shown multiple times with Telekinetic prowess that surpasses Koon’s own, owning up to the excerpt from Crosscurrent:

“Even without his lightsaber, a dark side user would find him a formidable foe."
Star Wars: Crosscurrent
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PostSubject: Re: Plo Koon vs Jaden Korr   Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:24 pm

// The double slashes indicate me talking and helping you in a debate. You can expect to find tips and suggestions in them.
Fated Xtasy wrote:
Jaden is one of the orders most promising Jedi at a very young age. His skill with the blade and defeat of powerful opponents such as Ragnos, Tavion and Alora show that he is a capable warrior, yet he is even more impressive as a force user as he has shown multiple times with Telekinetic prowess that surpasses Koon’s own, owning up to the excerpt from Crosscurrent:

“Even without his lightsaber, a dark side user would find him a formidable foe."
Star Wars: Crosscurrent
// Much better. The reason I didn't want you to type over 500 characters is because you are throwing out your entire argument against a higher debater. He will have the opportunity to hammer down as many points as he wants too without you having the chance to do the same to his. In terms of numbers, it would be like your debate would be only 15% left compared to his/her 80%. Making a short yet golden introduction that isn't a wall of text has been shown to be the best way to go. 
----------- ----------- ----------- 
Quote :
Jaden is one of the orders most promising Jedi at a very young age.
So was Zett Jukassa. Guess he is council member plus now?
Quote :
His skill with the blade and defeat of powerful opponents such as Ragnos, Tavion and Alora show that he is a capable warrior
Proof Ragnos, Tavion, and Alora are more impressive then Ventress or Darth Maul? Plo Koon defeated Assaj Ventress, a very powerful Jedi Hunter who has beaten the likes of Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi, with only one arm. 
His skill with a blade was so great that Darth Maul, whose skills as a warrior were nonpareil, considered Plo Koon a "truly Great Jedi warrior" and was in awe over that one day he will have the chance to battle against the "excellent fighter." 
Quote :
he is even more impressive as a force user as he has shown multiple times with Telekinetic prowess that surpasses Koon’s own
// Very good post. You share enough information to make me feel reluctant to respond, yet still don't give too much information away to quickly.
How is Jaden's telekinesis is superior to Koon's own? I don't recall Jaden ever collapsing large caves or defending against massive avalanches.
// Your next response should not be over 1,800 characters. For each response, a tip would be to have 500 characters more (maximum) then what the other had.

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PostSubject: Re: Plo Koon vs Jaden Korr   Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:13 pm

Darthant66 wrote:
So was Zett Jukassa. Guess he is council member plus now?


A decent point, however you forget that Jaden is praised by two Veteran warriors, the man that defeated Darth Vader & Palpatine and the man that Defeated Desann and Jerec. The word of these men carries weight. Not to mention you have nothing to support that claim.

Quote :
Proof Ragnos, Tavion, and Alora are more impressive then Ventress or Darth Maul? Plo Koon defeated Assaj Ventress, a very powerful Jedi Hunter who has beaten the likes of Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi, with only one arm. 


Tavion's force lightning blast was enough to bring Jaden & Kyle katarn to their knees, her force blast sent Kyle flying, then there's the fact that Luke and Kyle both considered her a threat. Alora was able to press Jaden during their initial confrontation on Taspir III and pressed, she demonstrated her proficiency with Jar'Kai and with Force lightning. Ragnos is considered one most powerful sith lords and despite his mastery of the force, Jaden bested him

Quote :
His skill with a blade was so great that Darth Maul, whose skills as a warrior were nonpareil, considered Plo Koon a "truly Great Jedi warrior" and was in awe over that one day he will have the chance to battle against the "excellent fighter." 

Yet, Koon lost to Savage, someone who is stated to be inferior to Maul and Ventress while he was wounded(Which i will note as impressive) Yet, we should note, that they[Savage and Ventress] were not in their respective primes.
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PostSubject: Re: Plo Koon vs Jaden Korr   Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:55 pm

Quote :
A decent point, however you forget that Jaden is praised by two Veteran warriors, the man that defeated Darth Vader & Palpatine and the man that Defeated Desann and Jerec. The word of these men carries weight.
In-universe hype is never as grand as canonical hype though, especially from Jedi. Luke is renowned for his anti-condescending attitude to everyone. Him saying [Character A] is powerful doesn't have much weight when he says the same about [Character B], [Character C], [Character D], and [Character E]. Hell, even as of Dark Empire, he still considered himself greatly below the likes of A New Hope Obi-Wan Kenobi. Note how this is the same Luke Skywalker who out-dueled Palpatine himself. And getting hype from your own master is also to be expected, of course he wants to think you are powerful and that he trained you well. Meanwhile, Plo Koon is receiving hype from arrogant pricks like Darth Maul who thinks he can challenge people like Mace Windu or Darth Sidious.
Quote :
Yet, Koon lost to Savage, someone who is stated to be inferior to Maul and Ventress while he was wounded(Which i will note as impressive) Yet, we should note, that they[Savage and Ventress] were not in their respective primes.
Except Koon lost to Savage under circumstantial terms... circumstantial terms that won't occur in this fight. Savage's supreme muscle strength allowed him to rip off Plo Koon's mask. Meanwhile, Jaden Korr doesn't even have strength feats to rival that of Asajj Ventress, let alone Plo Koon... or even greater yet, Savage Opress. Also, proof that it is stated Ventress>Savage or that Ventress was not in her prime?
Quote :
Tavion's force lightning blast was enough to bring Jaden & Kyle katarn to their knees, her force blast sent Kyle flying, then there's the fact that Luke and Kyle both considered her a threat. Alora was able to press Jaden during their initial confrontation on Taspir III and pressed, she demonstrated her proficiency with Jar'Kai and with Force lightning. Ragnos is considered one most powerful sith lords and despite his mastery of the force, Jaden bested him
// Focus on Marka Ragnos here. He is your key to victory... not Tavion or Alora. Also, you can't try to prove [Character A] is tough for beating [Character B] when [Character B's] only feat is pressuring [Character A]. Wink 
Tavion bringing Jaden to his knees is not a feat for her, but rather an embarrassment for Jaden. If he can't even defend against Tavion's lightning, how is he going to defend against Plo Koon's superior electric judgment? Also, what Force Defense feats does Kyle Katarn have that throwing him is impressive? Luke only considered Tavion a threat because she planned to resurrect Ragnos, not because she herself was powerful. In terms of Alora, once again, being capable of pressing Jaden is rather an embarrassment to Jaden because Alora has no other feats to prove she wields any skill with a blade. Also, feats and quotes that Marka Ragnos is impressive? Also, you failed to respond to telekinesis part. Is that a concession?
// Notice, at the minute I am trying to get rid of your main arguments without letting you put a dent in mine. Along with your response, begin to gather some of Plo's weaker performances and attack them. 

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PostSubject: Re: Plo Koon vs Jaden Korr   Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:44 pm

DarthAnt66 wrote:
In-universe hype is never as grand as canonical hype though, especially from Jedi. Luke is renowned for his anti-condescending attitude to everyone. Him saying [Character A] is powerful doesn't have much weight when he says the same about [Character B], [Character C], [Character D], and [Character E]. Hell, even as of Dark Empire, he still considered himself greatly below the likes of A New Hope Obi-Wan Kenobi. Note how this is the same Luke Skywalker who out-dueled Palpatine himself. And getting hype from your own master is also to be expected, of course he wants to think you are powerful and that he trained you well. Meanwhile, Plo Koon is receiving hype from arrogant pricks like Darth Maul who thinks he can challenge people like Mace Windu or Darth Sidious.

Key-word: "thinks" Maul is arrogant, he "thought" he could take on Sidious, yet he failed to perform well when the he[Sidious] was barely trying, he "thought" he could take Mace, yet his troopers interrupted and ended the fight for him. This contradicts your statement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iX7k-1DOxs

Unlike with Rosh, Kyle trust his apprentice and allows him to do solo missions, trusting him with much more important matters, than with Rosh.

Quote :
Except Koon lost to Savage under circumstantial terms... circumstantial terms that won't occur in this fight. Savage's supreme muscle strength allowed him to rip off Plo Koon's mask. Meanwhile, Jaden Korr doesn't even have strength feats to rival that of Asajj Ventress, let alone Plo Koon... or even greater yet, Savage Opress. Also, proof that it is stated Ventress>Savage or that Ventress was not in her prime?


Koon beat Ventress when she was still Dooku's apprentice, which was before the Season 3 arc only then did Sidious order Dooku to kill her because she was becoming too powerful. As for the strength feat you requested: Jaden killed An Umbaran assassin without using his force augmented strength(due to being cut off from the force by the assassin) and while injured, Jaden choked the assassin to death, he[the umbaran] "Was dead in seconds" 

Quote :
Tavion bringing Jaden to his knees is not a feat for her, but rather an embarrassment for Jaden. If he can't even defend against Tavion's lightning, how is he going to defend against Plo Koon's superior electric judgment? Also, what Force Defense feats does Kyle Katarn have that throwing him is impressive? Luke only considered Tavion a threat because she planned to resurrect Ragnos, not because she herself was powerful. In terms of Alora, once again, being capable of pressing Jaden is rather an embarrassment to Jaden because Alora has no other feats to prove she wields any skill with a blade. Also, feats and quotes that Marka Ragnos is impressive? Also, you failed to respond to telekinesis part. Is that a concession?


He was brought on his knees after going through Bast castle alone, fighting and defeating Rosh Penin while he was being amped and rejuvenated, not to mention the fact, that not even Kyle Katarn sensed her presence. Alora did press him, yet he responded to each and every single one of her strikes, displaying his expert knowledge of The Fast Style. as for your request for quotes:

"Before you is the tomb of Marka Ragnos, a half breed who possessed tremendous strength, both physically and in the force"
-Star Wars: KoTOR 2(Kreia) 

"Briefly possessed by Ragnos, Axmis wielded incredible power, yet she was still defeated by Korr."
- Star Wars: Databanks:Tavion Axmis

Quote :
How is Jaden's telekinesis is superior to Koon's own? I don't recall Jaden ever collapsing large caves or defending against massive avalanches.


His telekinesis is superior, he has sent a boulder flying with his raw power, made a makeshit bridge out of a pillar and has explosive capabilities with Telekinesis.

Plo Koon bested a lesser Ventress and he was incapable of defeating Savage who was inferior compared to maul
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PostSubject: Re: Plo Koon vs Jaden Korr   Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:00 pm

I apologize for my delayed response, I been busy with Selenial and the Kaggath. I'll try my best to respond on Monday... I am really sorry. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Plo Koon vs Jaden Korr   Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:21 pm

DarthAnt66 wrote:
I apologize for my delayed response, I been busy with Selenial and the Kaggath. I'll try my best to respond on Monday... I am really sorry. Sad

Two days have passed, you have automatically conceded the debate I Win
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PostSubject: Re: Plo Koon vs Jaden Korr   Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:54 pm

Ugh, fuck fated. I am sorry. Issues with SWTOR Forums and trying to prepare for the Kaggath has consumed a shit ton of my time. I am really sorry. I am off school on Thursday and banned from SWTOR until Friday so I will be able to debate you that day with really no distractions. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Plo Koon vs Jaden Korr   Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:37 pm

DarthAnt66 wrote:
Ugh, fuck fated. I am sorry. Issues with SWTOR Forums and trying to prepare for the Kaggath has consumed a shit ton of my time. I am really sorry. I am off school on Thursday and banned from SWTOR until Friday so I will be able to debate you that day with really no distractions. Smile

Three days? my, i guess I win by default Woah
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PostSubject: Re: Plo Koon vs Jaden Korr   Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:02 pm

Quote :
Key-word: "thinks" Maul is arrogant, he "thought" he could take on Sidious, yet he failed to perform well when the he[Sidious] was barely trying, he "thought" he could take Mace, yet his troopers interrupted and ended the fight for him. 
That's the point... I accept your concession? We aren't dicussing feats here, we are discussing character-introduced hype, which doesn't require feats to correspond with it. Maul is highly arrogant, and you gave examples of him thinking he can take of Mace Windu and Sidious. So then with Maul saying Plo Koon would be a great challenge for him is an epic hype feat for Plo Koon.
/ Don't write responses that help the opponent. 

Quote :
This contradicts your statement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iX7k-1DOxs Unlike with Rosh, Kyle trust his apprentice and allows him to do solo missions, trusting him with much more important matters, than with Rosh.
Explain to me how that even remotely contradicts any statement I said, like at all.

Quote :
Koon beat Ventress when she was still Dooku's apprentice, which was before the Season 3 arc only then did Sidious order Dooku to kill her because she was becoming too powerful.
That doesn't change the impressiveness of any of her former feats, though. She beat Anakin on Kamino, and held her own against the Skywalker/Kenobi duo on more occasions then I can count:

"Anakin and Obi-Wan will be there any minute. They say this as though these names can conjure miracles.Anakin and Obi-Wan. Kenobi and Skywalker. From the beginning of the Clone Wars, the phrase Kenobi and Skywalker has become a single  word. They are everywhere. HoloNet features of their operations against the Separatist enemy have made them the most famous Jedi in the galaxy. Younglings across the galaxy know their names, know everything  about them, follow their exploits as though they  are  sports  heroes  instead of warriors in a desperate battle to save civilization. Even grown-ups are  not immune; it's not uncommon for an exasperated parent to ask, when faced  with offspring who have just tried to pull off one of the spectacularly dangerous bits of foolishness that are the stock-in-trade of high-spirited  younglings everywhere, So which were you supposed to be, Kenobi or Skywalker? Kenobi would rather talk than fight, but when there is fighting  to  be done, few can match him. Skywalker is the master of audacity; his intensity, boldness, and sheer jaw-dropping luck are the perfect complement to Kenobi's deliberate, balanced steadiness. Together, they are a Jedi hammer that has crushed Separatist infestations on scores of worlds. All the younglings watching the battle in Coruscant's sky know it: when Anakin and Obi-Wan get there, those dirty Seppers are going to  wish  they'd stayed in bed today." --Star Wars Revenge of the Sith Novelization

In addition, Ventress's greatest feat was before Dooku's betrayal against a man who needs for introduction:


Quote :
As for the strength feat you requested: Jaden killed An Umbaran assassin without using his force augmented strength(due to being cut off from the force by the assassin) and while injured, Jaden choked the assassin to death, he[the umbaran] "Was dead in seconds"
That is not as impressive as holding off Ventress with one-arm, who in return has down the same with Mace Windu (while smiling): http://cs7003.vk.me/c7007/v7007306/dd92/_raus279KU8.jpg

Quote :
He was brought on his knees after going through Bast castle alone, fighting and defeating Rosh Penin while he was being amped and rejuvenated, not to mention the fact, that not even Kyle Katarn sensed her presence. Alora did press him, yet he responded to each and every single one of her strikes, displaying his expert knowledge of The Fast Style.
The Bast Castle is on a nexus. It is to be expected Katarn didn't press Alora, and that Alora could bring them to their knees based on the immense dark-side energy contained on the planet.

Quote :
"Before you is the tomb of Marka Ragnos, a half breed who possessed tremendous strength, both physically and in the force"
-Star Wars: KoTOR 2(Kreia)

"Briefly possessed by Ragnos, Axmis wielded incredible power, yet she was still defeated by Korr."
- Star Wars: Databanks:Tavion Axmis
Link me to a video for the first quote, never saw that before.
/ I know the quote exists, stalling because too lazy at the moment. I Win

Quote :
His telekinesis is superior, he has sent a boulder flying with his raw power, made a makeshit bridge out of a pillar and has explosive capabilities with Telekinesis.
Link to .gifs of the boulder flying and makeshift bridge. Also, examples on explosive capabilities?
/ I know the feat exists, stalling because too lazy at the moment. I Win

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PostSubject: Re: Plo Koon vs Jaden Korr   Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:18 pm

Darthant66 wrote:
That's the point... I accept your concession? We aren't dicussing feats here, we are discussing character-introduced hype, which doesn't require feats to correspond with it. Maul is highly arrogant, and you gave examples of him thinking he can take of Mace Windu and Sidious. So then with Maul saying Plo Koon would be a great challenge for him is an epic hype feat for Plo Koon.

Let give you an example of what I'm trying to say:

Darth Sion, he is considered Dangerous and powerful by Kreia, he a fairly powerful foe, with an impressive ability - yet she so easily dispatched him, despite him having the "pain" ability that he flaunts. Point being, A superior duelist such as Dooku, can praise someone like Cin Drallig - however, seeing as how he[Drallig] has no feats to suggest he is on par with the people Dooku mentioned(Which included Mace mind you) we could rightly make an educated guess and assume that Drallig is a low tier fighter.

Plo Koon is impressive, yet, he lost to Savage - who is inferior to his brother :/
//Should i have done that? or was that wasteful? 

Quote :
Explain to me how that even remotely contradicts any statement I said, like at all.


How many other Jedi has Kyle praised? How many other Padawans - not Padawans, students, Jaden wasn't a Padawan/apprentice until after his mission to Hoth, were allowed to go on missions alone? Remember, Kyle is not a traditional Jedi, he cared very little for titles. plus if masters are expected to praise their students, then we should acknowledge that Revan's masters. Zhar & Kreia, are only trying to encourage him praise him, Yoda is only trying to encourage Dooku, when he praises him. :/ come on ant you're better than that 
//I Would have used Revan as example, but i didn't want to seem too aggressive.

Quote :
That doesn't change the impressiveness of any of her former feats, though. She beat Anakin on Kamino, and held her own against the Skywalker/Kenobi duo on more occasions then I can count:


No... she ended up running away from Anakin after she realized that she was surrounded by the Clones. She didn't beat Anakin 

Quote :
In addition, Ventress's greatest feat was before Dooku's betrayal against a man who needs for introduction:


But that directly contradicts the text within the comic:



She never matched Mace and she outright agrees that he is her superior, then she proceeds to run away. 

Quote :
That is not as impressive as holding off Ventress with one-arm, who in return has down the same with Mace Windu (while smiling):


Yet she fails to defeat him, resorts to using the double blade, acknowledges that she is his inferior and runs away. An impressive feat, yet has she killed a fully rested man despite being injured and losing a lot of blood? again, this was without force augmentation - yet the assassin was dead in seconds.

Quote :
The Bast Castle is on a nexus. It is to be expected Katarn didn't press Alora, and that Alora could bring them to their knees based on the immense dark-side energy contained on the planet.


*Tavion -_-

 the first part was referring to Tavion's ambush of Kyle and Jaden, the part with Alora was referring to Alora and Jaden's duel on Taspir III :/


Quote :
link me to a video for the first quote, never saw that before.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdKuIpuL9Z0

Quote :
Link to .gifs of the boulder flying and makeshift bridge. Also, examples on explosive capabilities?

Link to the Boulder feat:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111177092/4057141-8488626196-0rLFs.gif

Link to the makeshit bridge feat:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111177092/4063354-1839204584-aJSRW.gif

And the quotes:
Quote :
"Jaden fell into the Force as they approached. He unleashed a blast of power that struck the leading corpses and they exploded in a shower of bone and dried flesh."
―Star Wars: Riptide
Quote :
"Jaden decapitated a corpse and loosed a blast of energy that exploded another five."
―Star Wars Riptide
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